Transformed by the Renewing of the Mind Interview
Part 1
finished up at Baylor, went back to Macon, GA. taught school and was assistant pastor
decided i was almost terminally ignorant about God and the soul
planned a couple years of graduate studies in philosophy, then back to pastorate or teaching or evangelism or the like
ended up with PhD from Wisconsin
asked to stay following year to teach
served as pastor to a couple of little country churches. blessed year.
the Lord said to me 'if you stay in the university, the churches will be open to you. if you stay in the church, the universities will be closed to you'
work in philosophy was well-regarded
frequent opportunities to minister and no administration
philosophy up until the 20th c. tried to answer the same questions ministry addresses
i find my work in philosophy very useful to me
1st book (Hearing God) concerns epistemology
2nd (Spirit of the Disciplines) concerns classic question 'how do you become a good person?'
that was the unsolved problem of Greek civilization. they knew what kind of person we should be, but couldn't produce it.
Greek civilization: wonderful ideas, but couldn't stop killing one another. had to ask the Romans to come in and stop them.
by 2nd c. AD, leading thinkers of Greco-Roman world recognized that Jesus and His people answered the questions they'd been trying to answer for 800 years. that's why at that time there was a mass conversion of intellectuals.
main questions:
What is real?
Who is well off?
Who's a really good person?
How do you get to be one?
In class: I'm open to any better argument, as Jesus would be. If you've got it, I want it.
the most common statement on university walls is 'you will know the truth and the truth will make you free'
truth is embarassing to people now.
your beliefs are true if what your beliefs are about are as you believe them to be
Part 2
truth is totally merciless. it doesn't adjust to anyone.
asks students: why are we having this course?
reality is what you run into when you're wrong
also what you can count on
research has replaced knowledge and truth. we have research universities
difference between having knowledge of truth and having belief
many have accepted re-positioning of the Xian domain outside of knowledge into something called faith
the Bible and the tradition of Christ is not a tradition of faith distinct from knowledge
it's a tradition of faith embodied in knowledge
Abraham didn't know where he was going but he knew Who was going with him
David knew what would happen from his past experience, that he didn't defeat the lion and the bear [God did], so he could face Goliath
faith environed in knowledge stabilizes our lives
knowledge gives you the right and responsibility to act, supervise action, to formulate policy and supervise its implementation and to teach
faith doesn't give you any of those
the church basically gave knowledge to the secular world. the universities said 'we can take that'
but the way they handled knowledge put God away and we know where that leads from Romans 1
social issues are legitimate, but they aren't open to truth
diversity was supposed to allow conversations, but it has cut them off. each little group says you can't attack us b/c we're diverse, so everyone just shuts up.
[Dallas reminds me of my grandfather: a big man with big hands from the midwest]
Scripture memorization
the human mind is pretty small. it can't take and hold a lot of stuff (even at its best). so what are we to occupy our minds with?
the truth about God and human lives under God; i.e. from Scripture
Col 3.1-17
Joshua 1.8: This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
Psalm 1:
1 Blessed is the man[a]
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law[b] of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.
4 The wicked are not so,
but are like chaff that the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
6 for the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.
Col 3.16: Let the word of X dwell in you in all wisdom
it becomes an individual project, embedding the Scriptures in our mind so that they are running there constantly, whatever our situation
a lot in good teaching and in songs
but in my experience, there is nothing that will replace memorization of [longer] passages
teach how to memorize, get people to commit to it
that's where doing together helps so much
you want to have people who meet purposively to say their memory verses to one another and discuss how memorization helped
(at first might have to discuss how actually memorized)
Repeat, Concentrate, Understand
John 14 is good, too
memorize, then you'll have to rememorize
eventually it'll be like the back of your hand, in your body. it will just be there. that's where you want it, the picture of the man in Joshua 1.8: in his mouth
what's interesting is what comes out of our mouths without thinking. we want the Scripture to be in our mouths. and that will make all the difference to us and those around us
have a group, have a party, go on a retreat.
Bible Memory Association
'The difference it makes in human life is unbelievable.
It's one thing to have a high view of the Scripture. It's another thing to embody it in yourself.'
in the early centuries of the church, in many parts of the world where Xianity came, ministers and deacons had to memorize whole books of the Bible
Part 3
we don't realize how much a part of the Judeo-Xian tradition that has been
little presentation of Scriptures in worship services. it's no wonder people leave their Bibles at home. they read a few lines off the screen and that's all the Bible they get.
there's no substitute for take it in bodily, from the book. it needs to be dear to you. you need to know where to find things on the page.
The reason you don't need to be educated as a Xian is because being a Xian is an education -- CS Lewis
the affections follow thoughts. thoughts don't follow feelings to the same degree. if you want to change people's feelings, you want to change their thoughts
[reminds me of logotherapy]
you bring people to a knowledge of X by bringing the Gospel to them
it's knowledge, by the power of the Word, and the HS
it solicits the will to surrender to God
you have to go there first
when you have a will that is unsurrendered to God, it is subject to all kinds of bad thinking and bad affections
anger comes from a misunderstanding of who one is and their world and who God is and who other people are
you have to have clear teaching about God and about our soul and how to live for X and who X was and what he's doing in the world now
that teaching can transform our affections from hate to love, from fear and anger to confidence and joy
there are not just feelings, but more like dispositions, like love and joy and so on
fear and hate (etc.) are dispositions of character that take over the person but they have these terrible feelings with them
if you just tried to change the feelings without changing the thoughts, you would become a slave to your feelings
there's a real danger of that in religion
people are apt to go for the feelings and use that as a basis for decisions without going through the mind
many people come forward in meetings and you never see them again. they don't become disciples.
Paul's merciless phrase for this is 'their god is their belly'. they're belly worshipers. they worship their feelings.
you don't go for the feelings, you go for the clear apprehension of truth
[Somewhere along the way, about 20 years ago, I messed this up real good. I tried to go w/o feelings for too long (or left them unconscious) and then, starting 10 years ago or so, I only went with feelings.]
and in that lays a basis for decision and provides the feelings that are appropriate for it that can overcome habits that can keep you away from God
so we have to work with the content of the Word and bring it to bear as clearly as we can, as fully as we can,
you can't do that w/o the assistance of the HS, but we're not waiting on the HS b/c He's ready to do it
the task that we have is to speak clearly
back to previous point: if we don't view ourselves as conveying knowledge of reality, then we will think of ourselves as exhorting people hoping that divine lightning is going to strike.
this is where we get the embarrassing position of pastors and teachers as motivators.
i think this is one of the greatest tragedies presently
our leaders are in the position of trying to motivate people to do things they don't want to do
and the standard of success, almost, is how well you can get people to do this
whereas we should be teaching in such a way that the motivation changes b/c the understanding changes
if i clearly understand that the house is on fire, i don't need someone to motivate me to get out
we've lost our confidence in knowledge and then we turn to feeling
and of course, that's the source of all addiction
an addict is someone who has abandoned their will to their feelings and they will tell you 'i cannot resist'
everyone knows that you can resist. you have to find out how. you have to have a knowledge basis that will fortify your will so that you can resist
there is no addiction you can't resist, unless it has moved into the area of demon possession or something of that sort, and then you have to have ministry in a different way for that
but the main thing we need to do for people in all areas --
problems in society: abuse in families, diabetes epidemic, addiction to sports --
come from a lack of knowledge about life
and if that knowledge is not provided, you cannot motivate people into salvation
you have to communicate truth, which is the word of the Gospel, that is the power of God unto salvation
knowledge communicated in power is the secret to solving the problems of humanity
ministers and teachers have the responsibility of bringing that to bear
we're in great opposition to a world system which denies that
Paul: 'we war not against flesh and blood, but the weapons of our warfare are powerful for casting down strongholds' -- Eph 6
that's where we as ministers must stand today in our communities and realize the dignity of our calling and that we bring something that no one else can bring
the most important thing that is happening in any community is meant to be what's going on in the church and we have to reclaim that
'normal Xian life' is what you see in Col 3.1-17 or the other great passages
I can't say that I would ask for it, but probably the best thing that could happen to the American and the Western church is persecution, if we really had to pay a price
Part 4
Lamentations: it's a good thing to bear the yoke in your youth
to know what it's like to have only God
'the Lord is my portion' Psalm 16, Lam 3, Ps 119. 57
the church has always done best, in godly terms, as well as in cultural terms, when it had the least
the apostles took on the world after what looked like a lot of failure
and they did it with nothing, except the Lord
that's all we've got. and when we count on it we will see the reality of the kingdom breaking forth all around
not just b/c the Scripture would lead you to believe that but because it actually happens, like in church history, you see it happen over and over and it's happening now in many parts of the world
[Probably what will work best is just doing everything by hand. writing out flash cards or whatever can only help the memorization process.
I feel like i've lost 10 years to discouragement and not trusting and seeking You. i don't have a testimony like DW of following you and being blessed. but that can stop. i can seek and trust You now and henceforth. and those years can even be redeemed and used for good.]
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